Name – John Patrick McCrohon

Date and place of birth: May 1795, St John’s Parish, Limerick, Ireland

Names of parents: John McCrohon and Margaret Unknown

Date and place of baptism – Unknown

Details of each of his or her marriages – married Amelia (Emily) du Croix at St Thomas, Winchester Hampshire (Unconfirmed)

Date of marriage: 23/06/1826 (Unconfirmed)

Occupation(s) – Sergeant Major; 4th Regiment of Foot, Lancaster King’s Own Regiment: Served in Portugal and occupied France after Waterloo. Regiment posted to garrison duty in NSW 1832 – 1837  ( Some researchers claim he was a Quartermaster. Not easy to verify as the regimental records were largely destroyed. )
NSW Constabulary: 1837-39. Appointed Chief Constable at Paterson NSW, 23/7/1838

Addresses where they lived: East Maitland, NSW

Date, place and cause of death: May 6, 1839, thrown from his horse on the road between Maitland and Paterson, NSW while on duty.

Date and place of burial. Buried at Glebe Cemetery

Details of will / administration of their estate – Unknown
Memorial inscription – Unknown

Ammanda, I have John’s Military Service Records – he enlisted at Cueta, Africa 25 May 1810 at 15 years of age. His service ended on 8 Feb 1837 in Australia. From 5 April 1819 until 1 April 1826 he served in the West Indies. He was a Sergeant for 8 years and 55 days and Quarter Master Sergeant for 5 years and 106 days.
I was looking for their marriage in Portgual/France, so that information, although unsubstantiated, is news to me. 😀 Thanks Julie

Julie: The information was given to me by a Cantwell researcher. They did not give me any documentation so I cannot verify. According to the researcher John was posted back to England, a base in Hampshire, and he and Emily were married there.
I would be glad of a copy of his service record. Thanks, A
btw did you get my email with the copy of the church register for the Gray/Dillon marriage?

That marriage date would appear to be for this entry, from the FS pilot site:

Groom’s Name: John Mccrohon
Groom’s Birth Date:
Groom’s Birthplace:
Groom’s Age:
Bride’s Name: Emily Banham
Bride’s Birth Date:
Bride’s Birthplace:
Bride’s Age:
Marriage Date: 23 Jun 1826
Marriage Place: Saint Thomas,Winchester,Hampshire,England
Groom’s Father’s Name:
Groom’s Mother’s Name:
Bride’s Father’s Name:
Bride’s Mother’s Name:
Groom’s Race:
Groom’s Marital Status:
Groom’s Previous Wife’s Name:
Bride’s Race:
Bride’s Marital Status:
Bride’s Previous Husband’s Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M13675-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 1041222
Reference Number:
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

but the bride has a different surname. Might she have been previously married?

As far as I know Emily was not previously married. It seems to me that the other researcher has made an error. McCrohon is not a common name but one branch of the family moved to England, and still lives there, and this John is probably one of from that group.
Thanks for looking, Merry, and clearing up that question. Back to the drawing board.

Merry, From the marriage reigster, would it be possible to see the original entry, or would you need to buy a certificate, in case there is a mistake with transciption of Emily’s surname?
As he was in the military from age 15, would he have needed Official Permission to marry? Would there be records?
Thanks Ammanda have received the Gray cert I will pm you. Julie

It’s too early for a civil certificate (1837+) but you could get a copy of the Parish Register entry from the Hampshire RO, for a fee!

Otherwise, you should also check the Chaplains Returns marriages (overseas ones and I think they may include some UK army marriages as well) if you haven’t already (they are on FMP 1796-1880, but you’ll need a sub) and bear in mind both their surnames are open to being listed under different letters of the alphabet!!

I’m not sure about the permission bit. Certainly at various times one needed permission from a commanding officer to marry, but I think sometimes it made a difference what rank you were and at what time in history you were marrying. Plus of course, needing permission didn’t mean that permission was always sought!

As he was in the military from age 15, would he have needed Official Permission to marry? Would there be records?

Ammanda, I have John’s Military Service Records

If there was a record of permission, his army papers would be the place to look, so if it’s not there……………..

I found a record of the birth of one child to John McCrohon and Emily
Henry William Mccrohon
11 Apr 1832
St. Mary’s, Chatham, Kent, England
There may be more but it was late when I found this one.
It seems that there was a John and Emily in England and they were still there in 1832.
Thanks for the help. A

I found a record of the birth of one child to John McCrohon and Emily
Henry William Mccrohon
11 Apr 1832
St. Mary’s, Chatham, Kent, England
There may be more but it was late when I found this one.
It seems that there was a John and Emily in England and they were still there in 1832.When did yours go to Australia? I had assumed Henry Wm was theirs, particularly being born in Chatham.Amelia (Emily) du CroixDo you have her birthplace or parentage?

Merry, their first child, John McCrohon Jr, was born in Portugal in 1827.
After that there are two children born, according to one researcher, in England. William Denis McCrohon and Jeremiah Joseph McCrohon. Both of these children are said to have died in 1834. John Sr and his family went with his regiment to NSW in 1832/33.
Therefore the two boys would have died in NSW and I can find no evidence of this in the NSW records after trying all the variations of the spelling of the name McCrohon that I can think of nor can I find any record of their births in England. The next child was born in NSW in 1833, Sidney Peter.
It is possible, I suppose, that the birth of two boys were recorded in some military records.
Seems kind of speculative to me, but once we start looking back in time it is all a bit foggy. Like my brain.

Oh, forgot to respond to the second part of your question. Amelia/Emily du Croix is a bit of a mystery; could be French, maybe from Belguim, no-one knows for certain. No date of birth just a C1798 for the year. Her parents are said to be Sidney Pierre du Croix and Sarah Unknown. That a lot of help, isn’t it?

According to John’s Service Records from the National Archives, it was noted that he served in the West Indies from April 1819 to April 1826. (I think this is noted because in his pension? they were only allocated half pay). The next positive fact is when John Junior is born in Portugal as Ammanda says. John and Emily therefore could have been married in the West Indies, England, Portugal, France or Belgium – if you can find the marriage Merry, you are an absolute genius.

The two boys I believe had headstones in Sydney in an early burial ground , but I think the cemetery has since disappeared. I think someone sent me some details, I’ll email them when I find them Ammanda.

Amanda I will email you.
I found listed in Monumental Inscriptions at Bunnerong (the headstones etc were moved here after the Elizabeth & Devonshire Street Cemeteries were cleared.) Grave No. 1409: William Denis and Jeremiah Joseph McCROHON the sons of Quarter Master Serg’t John & Emily McCROHON of the 4th or Kings Own Reg’t, the former died 18th February 1834 aged 4 years and 10 months, and the latter died 15th June 1834 aged 4 years and 5 days. In 1969 the Headstone was Upright and the Condition Good.
So William was born April 1829 and Jeremiah born June 1830, what a tragedy.

Julie: Thanks for the information. Wonder why there are no records for the deaths. I can’t find their births in England either. More mystery. A

Not really a mystery, Ammanda – they were born before civil registration started in the UK and died before civil registration started in NSW, weren’t they?

Yes 1856 in Australia. I compiled a pre-compulsory-registration BDM register for Tenterfield from church records, newspapers, family bibles and family traditions. The earliest being 1844, this area was only opened up in the the late 1830s. Seeing as how the priest/minister carried his notebook in his saddlebag and the areas were huge, it is simply amazing that any records survived. Tenterfield Catholic records were found in Grafton, Armidale and Ipswich.

Now that I have John’s service record (thanks to Julie) and seeing where the Regiment was deployed I have doubts that he met Amelia du Croix in France. He was not at Waterloo and so she probably is not from Belgium. On the other hand there is a prodigious length of time from his deployment with the Army of Occupation in France, 1815 through part of 1818, until his first child is born in 1827.
It seems more likely to me that he met her in the Caribbean where he served for almost seven years; the entire time the Regiment was deployed there. The 4th then came back to England for a short time in 1826 and went straight on to Portugal from December 1826 to July 1827. John Patrick was born there July 27, 1827.
Perhaps we should be looking for Amelia and a marriage in the French West Indies. That covers a lot of islands but at least we can rule out Haiti.
I have given it a go but no joy yet.

Ammanda I was looking through some photos that I took at the Gray reunion at Elsmore. There were printed sheets on the walls on the McCrohons. Some of these sheets were hard to photograph because they were covered in plastic.
Under UK Military Records it had: John McCrohon joined 3rd/East Kent Regt 1806. Lieutenant 1808. Retired injured as captain on half-pay. Father of John & William? Have you heard anything of this? This could explain how John born 1795 Limerick, ended up enlisting at Cueta aged 15, if his father was in the military based in England.
It also had that the second child of John & Emily, William Dennis was born in Scotland April 1829 and third child, Jeremiah Joseph, born England 10 June 1830.

Well you just think you know something and they something else crops up.
Tonight talking to a relie she tells me that she has a record someone gave her from the IGI for John McCrohon’s baptism (from his military records he was born 1795 in Limerick) it is RC Crondon Park, Essex Name John McCrohon (not sure if the surname is spelt like that) parents John and Margaret, baptism 1 March 1807. All I can think is that either he hadn’t been baptised or they didn’t have a record of his baptism for his confirmation. Can anyone view the original record and see if it gives his age?

Is there some way you can connect the Limerick John with Essex John?

Parents names are the same, John and Margaret. There also was a John McCrohon who was in the East Kent Regiment at that time. I haven’t followed through with checking, but I feel this could be why John Junior was enlisting at Cueta aged 15. I just hoped that the baptism register of this John might say his age which the IGI doesn’t.

Do you know what IGI search it was??? I can’t find anything.

No I don’t unfortunately I tried too. M. isn’t computer literate and said it was from the IGI and what did that mean!! The problem with McCrohon is spelt in all sorts of funny ways – I’ve seen McCrone, McCrohan, even Crone and that is in Australia!!

There are 10 people with John McCrohon born 1795 Limerick in ther GR trees. Have you contacted any of them?

No I should but I get a bit wary after what people have said about the unsubstantiated records that people put on there. I think Ammanda has as she has quoted from Allycat.

Some of the same people have Thomas Gray so probably rellies you already know. Any results you get from anyone are unsubstantiated until you’ve found them yourself so that’s not really a problem.

It’s only an issue when you take what others say as gospel without double checking.

That’s from experience….lol

Yo. When I get to the library I will look see. If Jan H. is on there, I was in correspondence with her years ago and she was very good. As are Ian M and Marcel.

I’ll have a look……are you a paid member??? I don’t think you can send messages unless you are.

No I’m not. If I look it at the Library and see what is on there and who is saying it, I can probably get in contact. Especially as there is a reunion at Easter.

One is a McCrohon and one is a Gray who have John McCrohon.

I can send them a message.

Thanks Lib, I will talk to you tomorrow. A bit too tired now to think up what to say lol

That baptism on the IGI is an “extracted record” and it gives his age at baptism as 1.

When he enlisted on 24 August 1810 it gave his age as 15 and under age (he officially didn’t get a pension until he turned 18). It gave his date and place of birth 1795 Limerick and this is on the original handwritten records. On the extracted baptism record if he is “our” John McCrohon his age should read 11 not 1?

It does say 1 Julie. You could always order the original from LDS and have a look.

Did I ask before……………..do you know if John had any siblings?

Yes it is worth a try. How did they spell McCrohon please?
How it could be disproved if a marriage could be found in Essex.

McCrohon. There aren’t any others in that batch, but that’s only baptisms and that one could be on the changeover year for that batch…

Have you looked for a marriage in England?

I looked and found nothing.
According to our Brisbane researcher there was a brother William McCrohon, 1807 but no place of birth. It seems that this is a real connection as William also joined the 4th and went to NSW with his family.
There was a John McCrohan born at Colchester 1814, I think. Fairly close by but I don’t know the significance, if there is one. Perhaps the same family and the younger John died.
McCrohan and McCrohon are always being mixed up so the spelling doesn’t signify.
There is a family tree on Ancestry that has a Margaret Manning married to a John McCrohon at about the right time but I can’t link them to us.
Julie, MS gives the marriage for Emily and John at 1818, no documentation.

Oh Ammanda…don’t you just hate it when someone gives you some info and can’t give you the source????? lol

I’ve had so many on my tree particularly from one person who is determined to connect us to royalty I’m sure. She has this beautiful tree without any sources and that’s because they’re aren’t any…………..lol

I think you need to contact the brisbane person and ask for all the sources. Anybody who has done a tree would expect to be asked for that so I can’t see a problem. Then you need to check all their sources yourself.

I’ve been caught badly by not rechecking another person’s work……

Tell me about it. Down the garden path and back again. I am such a believing soul, gullible is probably a better word, that I have had to be burned really badly to learn the lesson.
Julie knows him and he probably will be at the reunion in April so she can talk to him first hand. However, I take your point. If I can find an email address I will whisk one off.
I sound confident but some folk don’t like their research challenged so I have to tread carefully especially as this is the ‘definitive’ work on the McCrohons.
The good thing about the family is that the name is uncommon. The rotten part is that it is spelled in every conceivable way and then some.

Thanks Ammanda……………….not sourced at all really is it???

The index list is just that…I’d like to see some certs and PRs before I’d say anything.

So John and Amelia marry in 1818………..where was that supposed to be??? If John was in the army, why didn’t he need permissiom to marry??? And if he did marry without permission, wasn’t he supposed to re-marry??

Has anyone found his actual records??? That should have exactly where he was and when.

There’s a 9 year gap between the marriage and the first child. Not sure of the significance of that yet….

A lot of the historical parts are general history. I’ve got very similar in my book on the Moores from Ireland.

I’ll print it out and highlight the parts I’m not sure about I think the I might get a better idea.

Well, you have hit upon some of the issues and in short order.
We have his complete military record and can trace him from his earliest date in Ceuta.
I think he chose the 1818 because it was at the end of the time that John was in France with the occupation army. However, the rest doesn’t make any sense to me. Why wouldn’t she go with him to the West Indies? If she was outcast from her family where else would she go?
If the other marriage, Emily Banham, is anything to go by they started having children right away, as any Catholic couple would. Well, not just Catholic at that time. I think Emily had 9 children with John so there was no time to waste.
I had thought that if Emily DuCroix was on one of the French Islands in the Caribbean, after all they French had lost the war and control of their islands, at least nominally, then he could have met and married her there. I found no records to that end.
When the record in Winchester came to light I thought it more than probable. All the elements fit; John was at Chatham after returning from the West Indies and in between being sent back to Portugal. Their first child was born in Portugal in just over a year.
Also, even if Emily Banham was a widow and DuCroix was her maiden name, as the daughter of ‘some high official’ wouldn’t she be educated. She could not sign her name on the register but marked it with an X.
I also wonder how John got to Ceuta? He was obviously educated, could read and write and was a Quarter Master Sergeant. Maybe his father was already in the Military and the reference Julie found to a John McCrohon in the East Kent 3rd Regiment may be right on. The 3rd fought in Spain and Portugal during the war with Napoleon and perhaps his son was with him. Perhaps at Gibraltar just across from Ceuta. Ceuta is still a Spanish enclave in Morocco and was always an occupied military port.
Well, I am raving now. Off to bed.
Thanks for taking a look.
The

Most of “MS” “History of the McCrohon Family in Australia” is I believe based on documentation, but the sources are not quoted. (He refers to study at State Librariers, LDS, State Archives etc) The part about the runaway marriage is I think is a family story, how they supposedly met her in France and had a runaway marriage. We know now that John McCrohon, 4th Foot, married a Emily Banham at St. Thomas Winchester 23 June 1826 (have copy of the marriage registration). Their son John was supposedly born in Portugal 25 July 1827 according to MS, which would fit with the marriage. Whether the birth information was recorded in a Family Bible, we hope to find out. We have the TNA records of John’s Military Records – when, where he joined 4th Foot etc, his ranks and times and places of service, including seven years in West Indies. Some of this MS seems to refer to, but I can see some errors in assumption. I think it would be better to speak to MS privately. I think he is an older person who did this out of respect for an elderly uncle who was related to him by marriage. He has very generously made this information available with no copyright claimed and fair use for non-profit purposes is permitted. His History comprises over 40 pages and so there is a lot of time and effort put into the McCrohon story.

I think talking to him about his sources would be a good idea Julie. Getting info from LDS is a bit dodgy unless you see the actual film. I must admit to not know about submitted entries when i started this lark and that gave me all sorts of trouble.

I’ve also got bad info from the State Library by using others’ trees and stories. One has a bit of wrong info and the next embellishes it and it goes on.

I wonder if the Ducroix story was along the lines of a tryst rather than an actual marriage. Those things can grow legs if people start talking…..lol.

I don’t think Amelia DuCroix and Emily Banham are the same person. Of course I can’t prove that but there are many things pointing that way.

My ggg grandfather’s marriage of 1818 is documented in his records. He was a sergeant at the time. The records also tell when he took leave etc. Although he was in the WI and other places, he managed to get home to ‘pro-create’ every couple of years.

Maybe if you tell him, you’ve been trying to find certain records and ask if he’d help you, at least you’ll know where he got them from.

Well I found my buried records.
Death Registration of John McCrohon 20 June 1900 at Tingha NSW Born Portugal in Aust 58 years, Parents John McCrohon Quartermaster Sergeant in the army, Mother Emily Ducroi (x, more like t, possibly c). When this John’s son (another John died) his obit said he was the son of Mr. & Mrs. Patrick McCrohon who had migrated to Australia from Ireland.
Then the youngest child of John and Emily – Louis Estall died 3 May 1924 parents John McCrohon Miner and Agnes Decrow? (informant his son)
No wonder things are confused…
I.M. another researcher says in 2000: John – Born St. John’s Parish, Limerick July 1795, Brother William born Jan 1807 Crondon Park, Essex. John christened son of John and Margaret Crondon Park Rc 1 March 1807. Military Service – Returned Winchester 1 April 1826. Emily Ducroix Born France ca 1800 Seamstressi n Parish at time of British occupation 1816. First marriage to – Banham? John and Emily married 23 June 1826 at St. Thomas Rc Winchester.

My head is swimming! Lots of information and I wonder where it leads.
Thanks for digging it out of the coffins Julie. lol